EPISODE 15
October 21, 2021
With a BA from Sotheby’s Institute of Art and an MA in Dutch Baroque Art from London’s Courtauld Institute of Art, in 2013, Mariska Beekenkamp-Wladimiroff founded, Art Historical London, offering art lectures, courses, tours, travel and events from London. Over the years, she expanded to events in New York and Amsterdam, and in March, 2020, due to Covid and the cancelation of her in-person lectures and tours, Mariska quickly up-skilled, taking her programming online and worldwide – a marvelous example of how resourceful, and creative we’ve all had to be over the last two years, navigating the enormous restrictions imposed upon our lives by the pandemic.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Welcome to Women Who WaIk. I’m Louise Ross, writer and author of Women Who Walk the book, the inspiration for this podcast. And just as I did for the book here, I’ll be interviewing and unpacking the journeys of impressive, intrepid women who’ve made multiple international moves for work, for adventure, for love, for freedom – reminding us that women can do extraordinary things. You can find a transcript, with pictures, to each episode, and my books on my website, LouiseRoss.com.
[00:00:47] Louise: Hello listeners. Welcome to Episode 15 of Women Who Walk. My guest today is Mariska Beekenkamp-Wladimiroff.
[00:00:57] Mariska grew up in the Hague in the 1970s with her Dutch mother and her father whose family fled the Russian revolution in 1917, settling in Indonesia until the mid-to-late ’40s when Indonesia’s war of independence caused the family to flee again, this time to the Netherlands.
[00:01:18] As a 15-year-old Mariska had already met her husband-to-be. The young couple found they easily traveled together first within the Netherlands and then through Europe. In the late ’80s, Mariska studied Social Psychology in Amsterdam. And once married, her husband accepted a job opportunity in London. The couple made their first country move.
[00:01:41] Having worked in advertising in Amsterdam after graduating university, Mariska continued in the same line of work in London. After her first baby was born, she went back to university to study art history, gaining a BA from Sotheby’s Institute of Art in 2002. Heavily pregnant with her third child, Mariska completed an MA in Dutch Baroque Art at London’s Courtauld Institute of Art.
[00:02:10] For a while, Mariska had a commuter marriage with her husband working in New York and Mariska in London, teaching art history, setting her own hours around her children and traveling to New York on school holidays, so the family could all be together.
[00:02:27] As her teaching developed her students’ enthusiasm for her lectures, encouraged her to grow her reach. And in 2013, she set up her business, Art Historical London, offering art lectures, courses, tours, travel and events from London. Over the years, she expanded to events in New York and Amsterdam, and in March, 2020, her programming went online, which is how I learned about Mariska, as I discovered her lecture series during the COVID lockdowns.
[00:03:01] Given our inability to travel, to visit museums and art exhibitions, I found the online presentations to be enormously satisfying. Some of my favorites were the virtual museum tours, in particular, The Louvre in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates, and a series titled London Hidden Gems, incorporating little known art collections and museums in London.
[00:03:28] The evolution of Mariska’s lectures and tours to an online platform is a truly marvelous example of how resourceful, creative and upskilled we’ve all had to be over the last two years, navigating the enormous restrictions imposed upon our lives by the pandemic.
[00:03:45]
[00:03:56] Louise: Hello, Mariska. Welcome to Women Who Walk. And this is actually the first time we’ve seen each other face-to-face. It’s still online, but it is the first time isn’t it?
[00:04:07] Mariska: Absolutely. Of course I’ve seen your face and you’ve, you’ve seen my face, but in separate settings. So we haven’t actually been able to directly talk to each other.
[00:04:18] Louise: Yes, that’s right. That’s right. We’ll talk about that different setting as we get into the interview. Now you’re living in the Netherlands at the moment, but usually you’re based in London and I know there’s a bit of a COVID story there. Can you share something of what’s happened?
[00:04:33] Mariska: I am originally from Holland. I’m Dutch, but we moved to London 25 years ago. And then my husband had been working between London and New York for a while. And then we decided to all live in New York for a little bit. And we’d only settled there for about a year-and-a-half and the pandemic struck. We realized when you’re in London, you’re not around the corner from your parents, but in New York it’s even worse.
[00:05:00] So we felt we needed to go back to our parents who are a bit older, especially my husband’s parents. And so we took a flight out to Amsterdam and as it happened, just in time. And so, uh, we came to Amsterdam and then everything kind of started to be much longer than anyone expected it to be. Right. We all thought, well, a couple months, uh, and, and here we are. Um, but also it’s been really nice to be close to the parents. So yeah, I’m staying put for just a bit longer.
[00:05:35] Louise: I understand. That is one of the issues for families at a distance from, um, parents or grandparents that during the pandemic, people have been stuck and not able to get home, but it sounds like you managed to get home.
[00:05:49] Mariska: Just-in-time. And we were lucky. So my husband’s parents, uh, one of the issues was they actually needed to move out of their home into a retirement home and, and by sheer luck, we even managed to do that in between lockdowns. So, um, I actually feel we’ve been super lucky to, um, be this close and get it all done and settle everyone in. And, um, yeah, so it’s been, uh, quite a good time for us actually in that, in that sense. But yeah, impossible for international families at the moment. Absolutely impossible!
[00:06:25] Louise: Yeah, really, really challenging. Hmm. Well, it was a somewhat positive experience for you and your family then, which is, which is good news.
[00:06:33] Mariska: Yeah, yes.
[00:06:35] Louise: Now in some of the notes you sent me, you said Netherlands is a bit like a warm blanket, but your preference is London. Now why is that?
[00:06:42] Mariska: Holland is so well run and everything works. And every, everyone does what they say they’re going to do and people turn up on time. The buses and the trains run on time and everything kind of works, which is so nice. And of course, I’ve got my family here and my friends from school and from uni. Um, so that all feels like a security blanket, everything nice and good. And, but at the same time boring. So, I do know that eventually things will probably start to itch a bit, and I’ll want to go back to a place where it’s just a bit harder to live, I think. Because London is not an easy city to live in, actually, because of its size and because of the cost of living and so on. So there’s far more challenges, but I, I think in a weird way, I kind of like that.
[00:07:40] Louise: So the different, just the challenges, it keeps you alive, doesn’t it?
[00:07:45] Mariska: I still get, get myself into situations where I do challenge myself. So I think I need to kind of admit to just secretly liking it.
[00:07:55] Louise: Well, you’ve just admitted to everybody listening.
[00:07:57] Mariska: Yes.
[00:08:00] Louise: Now I mentioned in the introduction a little about your, um, the paternal side of your family, which is, which is rather fascinating. Your father’s family are Russian by way of Indonesia and then Holland, which is a really unusual migratory path. Is it a story that your father talked about when you were young or has it, or is it something he preferred not to talk about?
[00:08:22] Mariska: They talked about it all the time. In fact, they talked about it so much that we all started to feel very special, as if this was as exciting story of our family. And I think for a long time, I felt very Russian because it had such an extraordinary story, much more exciting than my other classmates in Holland. Until I traveled to Russia and I realized I’m not Russian at all, I’m very Dutch. But it was an exciting family thing that we got together and we shared this heritage.
[00:08:58] Louise: You say exciting? Was it because it seemed exotic to you as a young child or a young person?
[00:09:05] Mariska: I think because, uh, it felt exotic, but also it felt like these were people who, despite so many things going terribly wrong for them, kept picking themselves up. Kicked out of Russia. They go to Indonesia, have to start again from scratch, had absolutely nothing, uh, managed to build a plantation, do really well for themselves. And then of course, the Japanese came and they were interned and so on. Lost everything again, um, and then came to Holland. And so his idea of this family managing to keep picking themselves up and adjust to different societies, different countries, different people, educate their children, you know, all the, all the while. I just thought it was a really inspiring story. And I really felt proud to be part of that.
[00:09:57] Louise: And I wonder, does it give you a sense of understanding and compassion for refugees today?
[00:10:03] Mariska: My father always referred to himself as a refugee and immigrants. He always said he didn’t feel hundred percent Dutch. So yeah, absolutely. I like to think my family brought good things to wherever they settled. And I really think this is what refugees can bring, actually they can bring so much good.
[00:10:26] And in fact, you know, I studied art history at Courtauld and I did Dutch 17th century art and that was a century in which Holland let all these people in, all these refugees from all over mainly Europe, but that’s why it peaked. That’s why Holland did so well in the 17th century. So I’m a firm believer in the good that people bring when they come into your country.
[00:10:52] Louise: Um, I agree because Australia is a melting pot of people from all over the world, which makes it so interesting and rich. And that’s the point you’re making? I think.
[00:11:02] Mariska: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:11:04] Louise: And now I have a little sweet something that I want to address. You met your husband as a teenager and my Dutch guest from Episode 2, Anouk Cleven, also met her husband at that age. And, and I’m a bit of a romantic. And so meeting your beloved at such a young age, forging a life together and growing a family and moving countries, seems to me to be a bit like a fairy tale. Now don’t burst my bubble, but maybe you can do a little bit of a reality check for me.
[00:11:34] Mariska: Well, to be honest, this marriage has only worked because we had lots in common. But we also did a lot of things on our own. Uh, my husband living in New York at times and me living in London. And so us being separate. And again, now we’re separate. My husband is in London. I’m in Amsterdam. Separation is hard, but I think it’s also been very good at each forging our own lives and careers and, and friends and so on. Yeah, it’s, it’s lovely. But it’s hard as well. I can’t burst your bubble coz it’s been a good ride, actually.
[00:12:13] Louise: Wonderful. That’s actually a lovely story. But it sounds as though, perhaps because you’ve known each other for so long, since you were teenagers, you’ve been able to establish a relationship where you’re kind of operating in parallel. You’re not always together, but you’re very much, elbow-to-elbow as you grow your life together. Does that sound accurate?
[00:12:38] Mariska: Yeah, I think the other thing is it’s just sheer luck. If I look back at our lives together, it’s also almost feels like I’ve had relationships with different men, because the both of us went through different stages in our lives. So the kind of relationship we had at 15 was completely different to 25 to 35 to 45. And I think we’re just lucky enough that it all always seemed this new life each of us had still seemed to work together.
[00:13:08] Some of the other talks you’ve had with other ladies on your podcast uh, this is a theme, isn’t it? You can like each other a lot, but if at certain moment in time, it just doesn’t seem to kind of match up. Um, and we’ve just had luck that it always seemed to match up. Um, so yeah, knock on wood, but so far so good.
[00:13:33] Louise: It is interesting that some of the women have been single for very long periods of time by virtue of the life that they’ve chosen. Everyone’s living outside their country of origin, most of the interviewees are, or they’ve moved countries many times, which makes it difficult to maintain a relationship. And some of the women have been able to such as yourself and Anouk. I think listeners will be able to compare and contrast themselves as to how the women have managed their relationships. But I liked both the very, to me, romantic, stories like yours, and the very independent stories that some of the women also tell.
[00:14:14] Mariska: And of course, there’s another aspect to all of this. It’s still quite difficult on the children. And so that’s the other story I remember listening to your speakers. Some children love it. All this moving around and these parents being in different places and other children find it really hard. So, it is not as straightforward. It’s not an easy thing.
[00:14:36] Louise: Well, how have your daughters managed the moves Mariska and what have you found works best to help them navigate change?
[00:14:45] Mariska: In fact, I’ve got two daughters and a son, so three children who were at different stages in their lives when my husband moved to New York for a little bit and then when my husband and I moved to New York together. But the time when my husband moved to New York, all three children were still at home and with hindsight, I think as you divide certain tasks between partners, some children felt they’d missed out on what my husband is good at, or is fun at. And one of the things he, he’s great in sports and he watches sports and he plays sports and I’m absolutely hopeless.
[00:15:25] And as my son is quite sporty as well, I think that was something he really missed out on this, this feeling of having another parent to share certain interests with. So even though at the time it didn’t feel like a big deal, with hindsight the children will say, oh, it was a shame, we never got to do this, or we never had the chance to do that. And I do think that children don’t always realize what they’re missing until maybe they’re a bit older and then they, then they feel they might’ve missed out on certain things.
[00:16:01] Louise: Do you think that there was a gender difference? You said two sons and a daughter?
[00:16:07] Mariska: No two daughters and a son. I definitely think the poor son was stuck in a household full of women. And he was also in an age where all the teachers at school were still women. And then I’m close to my sister, I’m close to my mother, and they would sometimes stay with me to give me moral support for being a single mother. Um, so there are lots of women in his life and, and not that many men. I do think he felt, he was raised by single mum sometimes.
[00:16:34] During lockdown, my son actually spent three months alone with my husband, because of, I had to go back to Holland for my youngest one who’s in school. So he was with my husband in England for three months. And all he kept saying is he really felt like he caught up. And I think that’s what made me realize that those years when my husband wasn’t there, um, he might’ve missed out on, on certain things. I mean, they had proper manly cycle rides and watch sports all day and eat crappy food. And
[00:17:11] Louise: That’s great that he got the feeling that he’d caught up with his father. Well, thanks for sharing how your family has managed. Now you studied social psychology, but in fact, your real passion is art history. And so when did you first realize that the history of art was of great interest to you? And what was it about the subject that caused you to want to make a career out of it?
[00:17:35] Mariska: I was one of those people who went to university at 18 not really knowing what I wanted to do. I always had a love for art. My parents dragged me all over Europe and always to museums. I always loved it. But I didn’t really know what I wanted to do at 18. And my whole family had gone into law, and become doctors, kind of a standard thing. And they all went to the same university town in Holland, which is called Leiden. And I wanted to do something different, and so I decided I’d go to Amsterdam and do psychology. My father thought it was very weird, actually. So I remember telling this story to a friend of mine saying, oh, and I really wanted to be a rebel. And she said, well, what did you do? Did you do drugs? I said, no I went to Amsterdam and did psychology.
[00:18:22] So anyway, I thought it was a good story, but it became a really lame story of me not being adventurous at all. But anyway, that’s kind of what initiated it and I finished it. It was fine, but I think it just never went away, this passion for art and visiting museums and so I had the luxury, of course not, not everyone has that, but I had the luxury to take time off work and go back to university, because we could rely on my husband’s income, and I loved it so much. I loved it so so much. And again, people asked me, how did you do it? And you were pregnant with three children all along, but if you do something you really like, it didn’t feel like a lot of work. I loved reading the books. Of course you don’t put the pressure on yourself at that age. I mean, who cares what grade you get for a paper. Right. I just, I enjoyed it and then I finished and I guess then I started doing what I do now. And it just, it was, there was never a big plan. It just kind of happened.
Mariska lecturing in The Hague on 20th Century Dutch artist, Piet Mondrian
[00:19:24] Louise: In the introduction, I mentioned that, uh, your studies then evolved into Art, Historical London, your, your business and that, uh, you took your programming, your lecture series online. And I think it’s such a great example of how we’ve all had to be resourceful and creative and up-skilled during the last couple of years. In fact, in Episode 11, I talk a bit about my own journey, starting a podcast during the pandemic, including the challenges of getting my head around the technology. And, and just before we started this interview, we were talking a little about that, so maybe you can recap for the listeners. What, what has it been like for you?
[00:20:05] Mariska: I have to credit my children here, to be honest, because we were in lockdown number one. I’ve got two older children who were at that point, still at university, and a little one at, at school. And so all three different schools, all three had to transfer to online. All three of course are a young generation moaning about how terrible the universities had done it. They’re all complaining and here I was kind of going, oh, well, all my lectures have been canceled. And then I realized if they’re complaining, my students are probably complaining that, oh my gosh, Mariska is not doing anything, and, and so I thought I have to quickly do something and I listened to my children cause they all had different platforms and I started.
[00:20:52] And then of course, all we were talking about is all the questions that came. Cause I thought it was easy. People just press the link. And then people said, well it doesn’t work? And I said, what doesn’t work? You just press a link. And then all these other factors. I, I really was an IT Help Desk, those first two months. Just kind of talking people through it on the phone. You and I were talking about this, getting people on FaceTime to show me their screen. Figuring out if it was just our broadband, nothing to do with the link or anything. So yeah, crazy time, but I sort of enjoyed the next phase in discovering what we could do, cause it’s amazing.
[00:21:31] Louise: It really is. And of course it’s been a wonderful resource for people who have been isolated at home, including me. I mean, when I discovered it, I thought, oh my God, this is wonderful. Attend these lectures and do these tours. I can’t say enough good things about what a wonderful resource it’s been.
[00:21:51] Mariska: And it’s such a great thing, knowing that you were listening in Portugal and we had listeners in Australia and in Sweden and in Norway. I think that made me realize this is not just something we temporarily do because we have no other way of doing it. I just came to realize there was so many exciting aspects to it. Connecting with all these people. Connecting with listeners. But also being able to now get lecturers from all over the world or visit museums all over the world or zoom into details in a way that we could never, if we were in a lecture theater. I mean, quality for our computer screens is so amazing, perfect way to really view art. I slowly learned it was more than just temporarily get through, get by. It was really a great alternative and, um, kind of starting to enjoy it more and more as the months went by.
[00:22:49] Louise: It really is the next wave, I think, of being able to attend museums or exhibitions. Um, and you’re quite right the amount of detail or the quality of the lectures is excellent. So for instance, the, um, the tour of The Louvre in Abu Dhabi, I mean, that was exquisite and it really was. And sometimes even when you’re in a group, there’s a little bit of background noise. You maybe have to shuffle to get to the front of the group to be able to hear, but it’s almost as though you’re having your own private guided tour when you do it on online. Now that’s not to say that online is better than in-person, but it certainly is one way and a really high quality way of viewing art and museums. Yeah.
[00:23:39] Mariska: I agree. And who would have had the chance to go to Abu Dhabi? That was personally on my wishlist. I’ve always wanted to go to that museum. It’s not around the corner is it? So to be able to do it this way, I mean, it’s, it’s a real bonus. Of course we were lucky that, that’s a young museum, so the staff is very young and so they instantly understood what I wanted. Coz I tried pretty much every single museum and the established ones had no idea what I wanted or how to do that. Um, and it’s been a real struggle to make them take that step with me, but The Louvre Abu Dhabi was absolutely fantastic. And the girl who did tour was great, so that was a really good experience.
[00:24:28] Louise: You’re probably making quite a name or building a reputation for yourself with some of the more significant museums as you help them get on board with this new technology or this new way of doing things.
[00:24:41] Mariska: Well, lots of museums of course, were on furlough; they were getting a government support. And museums are generally run by art historians and art experts who are not necessarily marketing people or technical people. And so I found quite a bit of reluctance and they didn’t really know how to do it. So, it’s been an interesting journey and I still feel that a lot of museums are missing an opportunity here. I really think that even if there’s no pandemic there’s still a market to do tours online for people who don’t live around the corner or people who can’t sleep in the middle of the night, want to watch a recording of something. So there’s so many options and I think a lot of museums still have to look at these possibilities. I don’t think they’ve fully explored it just yet.
[00:25:37] Louise: Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. One of the things that came to my mind is that, um, generally retired elder folks, love to go to a museum who can’t get around easily anymore, this is a wonderful resource for them. Yeah. I can’t believe that museums are dragging their feet to get on board.
[00:25:56] Mariska: I have this wonderful speaker in, in Venice and she did a walking tour for us and it was still a bit shaky, coz it was on her phone. Now she’s doing it so professionally it’s absolutely amazing, Um but when she was doing the walking tour, I said to her why can’t we actually do this in a museum just with the phone, even if it’s a wobbly kind of experience, and we tried, and even her standing with her iPhone in front of a work of art. That works! I don’t understand why not more people are doing it.
[00:26:28] Louise: I think I did join that tour or one of your presenters, anyway, with a, with an iPhone and I was absolutely astounded by the quality and whoever it was, was very adept with their phone and using it and talking and showing the art at the same time. It was, it was extraordinary.
[00:26:48] So it’s been eight years since you started Art Historical London with one small group and meeting in a church hall, so going forward, I mean, these last two years of course has been a huge leap from the church hall, but going forward, what’s your vision for the programming or how do you see it evolving?
[00:27:09] Mariska: Well, it started in a church hall and then I expanded to groups in and around London. And then when I was in New York and of course, Holland and Amsterdam, but this past year with, with COVID, I realized we, we don’t need to be in one country. I mean, connecting with you, and connecting with others. So I really hope I can expand on that. That I can reach, um, more people in different places. You know, my lectures are being delivered in English. Of course, that’s the language a lot of people now speak or understand. Um, and so, uh, and this is the mysteries of the internet: I should have asked you how you found me, but I, I never really understand how people find me or how I make people find me. And so that’s, that’s the next challenge I think.
[00:28:00] Louise: I would imagine it was on Facebook. And of course I Googled immediately and I also found you on LinkedIn. I did send links to my sister in Australia, so then it really is word of mouth.
[00:28:12] Mariska: That’s how my groups have grown. Starting in the church hall with one group, the fact that I’ve got 700 people in my database, it’s all word of mouth. I really feel honored that people spread the word like that. It’s a really wonderful thing.
[00:28:28] Louise: We imagine that various social platforms are the way to go, but I think it’s the same with my podcast. It really is word of mouth that, that it just slowly builds as a result of one person telling another, telling another it’s the domino effect.
[00:28:43] Mariska: Absolutely. And these are contacts which are more valuable as well. Because of word of mouth, I really feel the people who join are people who know why they’re joining and, um, who are motivated to join. I mean, I really think it’s a wonderful way to grow your business. Yeah.
[00:29:02] Louise: And after more than a year of traveling the world online with your business, do you see or envision another move ahead of you?
[00:29:13] Mariska: I really do miss London, at the same time I’ve realized what’s so wonderful in Holland is that whenever you do get bored of this tiny country, you step into your car and you start driving and you’ve got Europe at your doorstep. I can be in Paris in a couple of hours. That feels, um, very special. But ideally, and I really think this is what I learned because of COVID, ideally I just live wherever and I maintain an online kind of connection to everything and everyone. I’m not kind of tied to one place. That would be my ideal world.
[00:29:55] I’ve got about a year more of my daughter being in school so me being tied to one place. And then i, I’d love to join you in Lisbon or anywhere! This online thing is just a wonderful way to make that work. Yeah, so who knows. But we’ve kept our house in, not in London, but in the Cotswolds. So I’ll definitely not say goodbye to England.
[00:30:19] Louise: I see, well, I think that you, um, have said something that really resonates for me, which is that once you’ve created a work-life for yourself or a creative life for yourself online, you can take it anywhere. You’re no longer fixed to, to one address.
[00:30:39] Mariska: I agree, I mean, absolutely. But also very exciting. Oh, I remember, um, very early on into, I think it was lockdown number two or three, people started to catch onto the possibility. Was it The Bahamas? Or one of those islands started advertising, you know, come to us, sit it out, we’ve got good broadband. I thought how clever to lure people to a tropical island. I mean, just wonderful.
[00:31:07] Louise: In our retirement years, we might end up being digital nomads.
[00:31:11] Mariska: Yes. Yes. Unless everyone just goes back to normal. People might get fed up with online. We’ll see what happens.
[00:31:17] Louise: Speaking of online, how can listeners find you and Art Historical London?
[00:31:22] Mariska: Facebook and LinkedIn and Instagram and Twitter. And of course on my own website ArtHistoricalLondon.com. My website is probably the best port of call because that constantly changing calendar of events.
[00:31:37] Louise: I think that’s probably the best place for listeners to go to because then they can see the calendar of events and it’s, it’s something to just dip into on a weekly basis to see what’s coming up. I certainly do that. So I’ll link to that in the transcript to your episode Mariska, ArtHistoricalLondon.com and thank you so much for being available today. This has been a fun chat.
[00:32:01] Mariska: So much fun and I wish we could chat a bit longer. I love your house.
[00:32:06] Louise: Now listeners, Mariska is joking because my recording room is my kitchen closet and my cleaning products in the background.
[00:32:18] Mariska: It feels really personal, I like that, like, I really know you now.
[00:32:22] Louise: You do; I’ve revealed a big secret.
[00:32:27] Mariska: Well, thank you so much for having me. I think you’re doing a really wonderful thing. I’ve been addicted to listening to all these amazing women. Gosh, there are so many amazing women, uh ..
[00:32:37] Louise: I really love doing this because I love having these conversations and hearing what women are doing.
[00:32:42] Mariska: So completely different, uh, life paths and so on.
[00:32:47] Louise: Different and extraordinary. I find it really uplifting and exciting, um …
[00:32:53] Mariska: You’re you’re onto something.
[00:32:56] Louise: Thanks. Okay, bye for now.
[00:33:00] Thank you for listening today. And so you don’t miss future episodes with more impressive, intrepid women do subscribe on your favorite podcast provider or on my YouTube channel, Women Who Walk Podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review Women Who Walk on either Apple Podcasts or Podchaser, I’ve linked to them both in the transcript of this episode, on my website, LouiseRoss.com.