EPISODE 17
November 24, 2021
Equipped with a law degree, an internship from the BBC White City in TV script writing and film production, plus certification as an ESL teacher, and still only in her 20s, Zoe Popham headed for Thailand for adventure, and to teach English. Serendipitously, she knew an English guy working in Bangkok on a film and he invited her to work with him. The realization that there was international production work in Thailand, led to a job opportunity with an Indian-Thai production company that made TV commercials for India. Over the next 18 years, Zoe worked her way up in the industry, but after a nearly 2-decade career in Asian TV commercial, news and feature film production and post-production, in 2015 she relocated to Portugal in search of a more balanced and healthy lifestyle for herself, and her young son.
TRANSCRIPT
Louise: Welcome to Women Who WaIk. I’m Louise Ross, writer and author of Women Who Walk the book, the inspiration for this podcast. And just as I did for the book here, I’ll be interviewing and unpacking the journeys of impressive, intrepid women who’ve made multiple international moves for work, for adventure, for love, for freedom – reminding us that women can do extraordinary things. You can find a transcript, with pictures, to each episode, and my books on my website, LouiseRoss.com.
[00:00:47] Hello listeners. Welcome to Episode 17 of Women Who Walk. My guest today is Zoe Popham. Zoe grew up in a working class family in South London in the 1970s. In her teens, she was awarded a bursary to a private academic secondary school in Croydon known as Old Palace Girls School. Zoe was the first person in her family to finish A Levels and to then go on to university where she studied Law. When in casual conversation, I asked Zoe, “Why Law?” Without missing a beat she said, I wanted to be Prime Minister.
[00:01:30] In the mid-90s, during a study abroad year in the Netherlands, she decided instead that she’d like to work for the EU or in the House of Commons. But without the right connections to help open doors, and as a still quite young woman developing her confidence, she instead fast tracked in the civil service and at 21, Zoe was offered a high-level position as a customs officer managing corporate solvencies.
[00:02:01] Despite guaranteed security, government work was not what she wanted. So she took a year off and traveled solo around Australia, later returning to the UK where she picked up social services, legal work. She then took an internship at BBC in White City, to feed her creativity, writing TV scripts, and producing short films. She also qualified to teach English as a second language. And in the late ’90s, she put that training into practice, traveling to Chiang Mai in north of Thailand for adventure and to teach.
[00:02:44] As it happened, she knew someone in Bangkok who was working on a film and he invited Zoe to work with him. The realization that there would be international production work in Thailand led to a job opportunity with an Indian-Thai production company in Bangkok that made TV commercials for India.
[00:03:05] Over the next 18 years, Zoe worked her way up in the industry. But after a nearly 2 decade career in Asian TV and feature film production, and post production, she relocated to Portugal. As a single mum, she was in search of a balanced and healthy lifestyle and good affordable schooling for her young son.
[00:03:28] These days, Zoe works with a Portuguese production company on TV commercials, feature films and documentaries, plus content development for international streaming platforms.
[00:03:40] During the recording of this interview, Zoe had some issues with her computer. So the sound is not great on her end, but keep in mind that you can always read the transcript on my website or the videogram closed captions on my YouTube channel.
[00:04:09] Welcome Zoe! Thanks for being a guest on Women Who Walk today. Now in the introduction, I alluded to the fact that you lived in Bangkok for almost 20 years. Can you tell us what are some of the memorable images from your neighborhood there? Those daily scenes that have stuck in your memory?
[00:04:29] Zoe: I lived in one area for quite a long time. I had an apartment in a very famous street, a lot of people coming in and out. My main memories of that is always busy. You could get food any time. I had a stray that I would feed that would always come to find me and also hairdressers downstairs. So the routine was like, I would get up, go to the hairdressers and it was very cheap, like a euro to have your hair done every day. So I’d literally go they’re asleep. They would make me coffee, have my hair washed and straightened and then walk out of their door, straight onto motorbike and then go to work. And that was a routine every day. So I knew those people for years. Getting all the gossip in the hairdressers.
[00:05:24] Louise: That actually sounds a little like here in Portugal, because there are hairdressers on nearly every street corner. And it’s, it seems to be the place where people go to have a coffee, get their hair done and exchange daily news. And now you’re in Cascais in Portugal. So that’s quite a different scene from Bangkok.
[00:05:45] Zoe: Very different. I do miss the hustle and bustle. I think I always liked having people around me. Here is a lot more quiet. I miss that chatting with people, random people and, um, yeah, just there’s so much going on in Bangkok. It’s a very stimulating city, constant noise. And there’s just crazy things all the time. Used to go to work on the bike and then an elephant would go past and hit my face with its tail, that’s kind of like the normal things that happen. So, um, but you just got used to the craziness. So here, it seems a bit more calm.
[00:06:24] But in a way, that’s why I’m here. The downside of Bangkok there are a lot of cracked pavements and holes. You could easily break your ankle, get hit by random car. You always had to be very alert, and here, I don’t feel like I’m as alert and that’s nice.
[00:06:39] Louise: We’ll talk a little about the move here and the reasons behind it but meanwhile, I want to go right back to the beginning and you’re from the UK. And I also mentioned this in the introduction that you were awarded a bursary to Old Palace Girls School and that you were the first member of your family to graduate secondary school and go to university. Was there support at home for your aspirations to study or did you have to pave your own way?
[00:07:09] Zoe: My family had not studied in that way. So they couldn’t really help me with the homework from age 11. They were kinda like you’re on your own. Don’t really understand what’s going on. So, I had to really work it out on my own. I think it was a generational thing too. My mum had left school at 15 and my dad left school and got an apprenticeship as an engineer. So it was typical working class family, you would just get out of school and try and make money quickly.
[00:07:45] I guess they were worried about me, worried I’d just be in school and not making money. And then when would the money come. They had certain idea of what they wanted for me, which is I think to work in a bank forever. A job for life with a pension.
[00:08:03] Louise: And you had a very different aspiration for yourself, which again, I mentioned this in the introduction, you said you wanted to be Prime Minister. I love this because even though you came from this working class background, as you say, you, you saw something that was vastly different for yourself than, than your parent’s saw for you. Where did that come from?
[00:08:29] Zoe: I always was interested in stories in the news about people that were treated unfairly and I had this feeling I wanted to fight for the underdog. I was very sensitive child, like, why did that happen to that person? That’s not fair. And just because they didn’t have money or just because they didn’t know the right person. That’s not how it should be. I thought, well, how could I change that? My school was very good at pushing us – I went to an all-girls school. So it didn’t cross my mind I couldn’t do it. I thought, if I’m prime minister, I’m the most powerful person so then I can change it. I thought it was that simple.
[00:09:16] Louise: And, and yet, I guess it wasn’t that simple because you went on to work in government in civil service. Um, but it wasn’t for you and you ended up traveling solo through Australia. And then is this when you discovered that in fact you’d rather be writing and working in film production?
[00:09:36] Zoe: I was into film before I went to Australia. When I was working for the civil service, I wasn’t really stimulated so, um, I took evening classes, and I also joined a group nearby by that they were making short film. So I started script writing after work as an evening class. I just wanted to do something creative.
[00:10:00] Louise: What’s interesting to me is that Law and the creative and visual arts seem worlds apart. And yet somehow you made a career out of both. I mean, is there anything similar about these two tracks?
[00:10:18] Zoe: For me, they’re similar. I think that they’re both creative in their own ways. They both need a lot of focus. They both involve working with people and knowing people. I suppose I’ve always been attracted to any kind of job that is dealing with people and personalities and diplomacy. And they both have that. They’re both quite highly pressured careers, so yeah, I think that was the challenge to me. And I find I use the same skills in both. Have to be quite good at being clear; there’s so many people relying on what you write and it must be interpreted well in order for things to move on.
[00:11:03] Louise: Interesting. In addition to, to these two career tracks, you also did some study and teaching English as a second language, and then that took you to Asia. Is that right?
[00:11:15] Zoe: I did that as a sideline. At the time I was dating a guy and we were planning to go live in Spain. And I thought, well, what will I do? He could easily get a job there. So I thought, what can I realistically do? I thought I can teach. That’s a skill I’ll have and I can keep. It wasn’t meant to be a job for life. It was more, when I’m in trouble, I can turn to that.
[00:11:40] Louise: And yet you end up in Thailand, perhaps for adventure and a change, and then your life opens up there. Can you tell us a little about that?
[00:11:51] Zoe: I had a friend that I’d met in Australia. We had planned to do this teaching certificate together. And then she got a job in, in Chiang Mai in the North of Thailand and then was not so happy there. And had sent me a message saying that it’d be great if you come, I’d really love to see you. And so then I decided to go out there to see her. She ended up leaving, but in the meantime, I taught at some schools and then I got into film.
[00:12:20] Louise: And that was kind of serendipitous the way you got into film there, was through the brother of a friend and you ended up working with him on a, on a film. And then that opened the door for you to transition into your, your long-term career in film and film production.
[00:12:39] Zoe: I’d worked at the BBC as an intern before all this and I found it a very closed shop. I worked with all men, and all upper-middle class, or very connected. And they didn’t seem to really care about the job itself. It was like, oh, my uncle got me this job. And this was like my dream job. And I felt it was really unfair. Like, you just don’t care, you just got handed it?
[00:13:08] It was so hard to get into the BBC or any, any kind of production. You had to really know somebody. And, um, I didn’t have any contacts at all. In my early twenties, I was extremely ambitious. The other interns were about 18 and the other people working in TV, like permanent people, they were all older. I felt like I will be 40 before I’m a producer or have any level of responsibility. This is how it is unless you know someone.
[00:13:40] I thought, well, I’m not doing that. I don’t have time. I’m 21, and, um, I need to do this fast. And so when I was in Thailand and this opportunity came and the guy in question, he’s English as well, and um, I met him and he said to me, ‘wow, you didn’t know Bangkok is about to explode! Bangkok is the place for TV production.’
[00:14:05] I had no idea. And he said this is the best place you could be. They’d just filmed “The Beach,” which was a big Hollywood film. There are a lot of big productions coming there. And he said, now is the time. If you get in now you will be in this wave.
[00:14:24] I had no understanding then about the fact that people traveled across the world to film. That commercials would be shot. Like someone wanted an elephant, they would fly to somewhere with an elephant with the background that’s tropical. I hadn’t really thought about that world. Then I realized, wow, there was all this work, actually, even coming from the BBC to Bangkok. There was work coming from everywhere.
[00:14:50] It opened my eyes to the possibilities. And because there weren’t many young English girls desperate to be in TV, I could get hired more easily and no one cared about my accent. They didn’t care where I grew up. They had zero interest in anything, except could I do the job well, and that was it.
[00:15:12] So that’s what I did. I just worked so hard, um, in order to be taken seriously and thrown such a lot of responsibility so fast. I could never have reached those levels if I had stayed in England.
Zoe on set
[00:15:27] Louise: So it was really, um, the right move to Thailand and for you to climb the ladder in the industry. Did you ever run into any, uh, former colleagues or associates from the BBC in Asia?
[00:15:42] Zoe: I went back to the BBC for business meetings. I actually went back to White City where I’d worked. It was very weird. I just walked in the doors and I thought this is so strange, like 15 years later, I’m meeting the Head of Department. I’m like so much more senior than any of the people.
[00:16:01] Louise: Oh, I bet that, that was a nice feeling.
[00:16:04] Zoe: I was really excited about it and I was also a bit scared because I was still comparing. And it was actually that trip that made me stop comparing because when I went in, I thought, oh, I just feel so much more experienced. They asked me to do a talk while I was there because so many people had asked how it was to film abroad. And so many people came to that meeting because they wanted to leave England. So there was me in the BBC giving a talk to all the staff about how, how great it was to live overseas and film overseas and all these BBC staff were so excited. Can I get your number? Can you help us get work?
[00:16:44] Actually one of the guys I met there; he was a really good editor, he ended up moving to Bangkok and I worked with him and he became a top editor for the company I worked for and is still there. Then I realized actually, I’m going to stop comparing because, I don’t really want to this now. Like if you gave me the option, I wouldn’t take it.
[00:17:06] Louise: Yeah. Yeah. Did you find that that your law degree came in handy at any point? I mean, when you went to some of these business meetings, were they drawing on your background in law or only production experience?
[00:17:20] Zoe: I don’t think it wasn’t useful. I think what’s more important is the experience and your name. I built up a name in Asia, it’s all who you know, definitely, TV, but I would say it’s more like, who do you rely on? Who do you trust? I had clients, they were coming over to film. I said, oh, I worked with this on a show. This is the irony: in the end they didn’t care about any of my qualifications or anything. It was because I had a resume of work and that trumps everything.
[00:17:52] Louise: From the perspective of an outsider, like from my perspective, TV and film production seems so glamorous. Do you think I’m being naive?
At the Bangkok film Festival
[00:18:04] Zoe: I don’t see it as glamorous. There’s definitely adrenaline to it. I think that’s why it’s addictive. It’s a high adrenaline job, because it’s very exciting. There’s a lot of pressure. There’s a lot of money involved. It’s good and bad. You work crazy hours. And it’s not a standard job. It’s a lifestyle.
[00:18:23] I see what’s not on the screen. I see everything behind. So, you’ll see like a really good looking actor. Public sees the actor. But to me, the actor is just very tiny part of it. You’ve got hundreds and hundreds of people behind that person and the amount of work that goes on, so much work like years of preparation and so many hours and so many people involved. And the politics.
Zoe directing an actor
[00:18:54] In a way it sounds bad, but for me the model or the actor, or the glamorous-looking person is just, okay, just stand there and do the thing, but it’s everyone else, I’m mainly dealing with. Most people see the glamour, like the beauty and the beautiful things, and they think it’s glamorous, but it’s not reality.
[00:19:13] Louise: You mentioned politics and this reminds me of the MeToo movement coming out of Hollywood and the industry has changed a lot, hasn’t it. Can, can you maybe talk us through some of the changes that you’ve encountered and what navigating those changes has been like for you?
[00:19:31] Zoe: It’s still hard. I know from friends in the UK, they said it’s very different; they actually keep encouraging me to go back there because especially for women, it’s a great time. There are a lot of opportunities. They’re looking for different voices. So this is almost like the very best time to get into the industry.
[00:19:52] Louise: Oh really.
[00:19:53] Zoe: Yeah. And I would say, it’s extremely sexist industry in that it’s really hard because as a woman, I feel kind of ashamed of things I’ve done or seen or supported. Um, but at the same time, if you want to get in and you have to play the game, that’s how it was. And as a woman, I’ve had everything happen and yes, dangerous. It’s dangerous.
[00:20:20] Louise: Can you share a couple of things that you’re comfortable talking about?
[00:20:25] Zoe: I guess it’s like how much people respect you as a woman and how much are they not taking you seriously. Because I knew a lot of people, I felt like I didn’t have to fight that hard. But I did have issues with famous directors. I was actually attacked once, um, by a famous person who had bodyguards stationed outside my office.
[00:20:46] Louise: Oh good grief.
[00:20:46] Zoe: Yeah. And I was lucky because I actually got a feeling and my colleague, I’d said to him, if I don’t come out in five minutes come in. And he just went in, so nothing actually happened, but it was about to happen. I couldn’t say anything because this person was a very big client and if I said anything, then it could destroy the company.
[00:21:12] And I got used to being put in strange situations. I had to be really careful. I became extremely street wise. I traveled a lot abroad alone, filming in China, Vietnam, Singapore. I was always going to different places, alone, carrying money. It can be quite dangerous.
[00:21:34] Louise: You mentioned that you became really streetwise. Do you think that the, the industry forced you to grow up in a particular way that, um, has been an advantage or a disadvantage?
[00:21:46] Zoe: It’s sort of sad, but I probably went off men a lot in this job.
[00:21:51] Louise: Oh really.
[00:21:52] Zoe: Yeah. I’m not really trusting, because when the clients came over, and part of the work was their social life, I was the one dealing with their wives calling, and I had to be loyal to the client. Put me in very awkward positions a lot of the time, because I would see everything that would happen. In order to keep my position I had to be very discrete.
[00:22:18] I worked with Harvey Weinstein, not directly employed by him. I met him and he kissed me, but he’s not interested in me. He’s interested in top models.
[00:22:40] Louise: Oh, wow.
[00:22:41] Zoe: It’s because the models and the actresses want to change their lives. I just found it sad, but it’s work, you know, um, so it got really tiring. You start to really question relationships. I was never really interested in dating anyone in business. I think I was kind of protected in that I wasn’t really seen to be like a woman. I guess I was seen as one of the boys.
[00:23:10] Louise: I think a lot of women do that, adopt, uh, um, a male persona in order to cope with sexism on the job.
[00:23:17] Zoe: With MeToo, I think, wow, all the things I could have said. And that’s why I feel kind of guilty now. But at that time it’s not like you could say something and then things happen or change. I believe that I could change it from the inside so I would try to hire more women. I was very sensitive to the women I worked with. I would make sure that they have someone to check they got home. I would warn them about clients. Have a system for the women that works and give them tips.
[00:23:47] Louise: The industry sounds dangerous for, for some women. And that you were really having to look out for the women that worked for you. When you moved to Portugal and you began working for a Portuguese production company, I don’t want to put you on the spot, but are you noticing similar kind of things here or is the environment that you’re working in different?
[00:24:09] Zoe: Here’s very different. I think it was just that time. It was Asia. There’s the good and the bad, right. You could go to Asia and you could film in amazing places and get things in locations you want, and you can buy anything really, and that can be great for clients. And the downside of that is someone’s going to pay for that.
[00:24:29] There’s like a point you can’t take it anymore and just want a calm life. And that would be single women that quit. I think they’re just sensible. And then there would be women that had children. They just literally disappeared. I had no idea that anyone I worked with had children until I had a child. To talk about children was a kind of weakness. If you have a child that means you’re a liability.
[00:24:57] Louise: Yeah.
[00:24:57] Zoe: Because you’re in such a high pressure job, you cannot have time off if you’re filming.
[00:25:05] Louise: It helps me understand why you moved to Portugal. Initially, I think I understood from you that it was because you were looking for a better school for your son, but Portugal is so family oriented. So this is definitely a place to have respect on the job as a, as a single parent. Um, have, have you found that, that in fact is the case?
[00:25:26] Zoe: It’s not great for me because I don’t have family, granddad, grandma, if your child’s sick. Most of the ex-pats I know we’re all in similar positions. You don’t have families, so we kind of create our own. I think maybe if it was your family and you live with them, you’d have a bubble within your house and you could rely on them more. When you don’t have that family structure, I think it’s quite hard.
[00:25:52] Actually, Thailand had better support. I had a nanny to help when my son was small. I could really trust her, she was amazing. I would do half days, things like that and we would share, and that was great. She was amazing.
[00:26:07] Louise: You have your dad visiting at the moment. I’m assuming that for the last two years though, you haven’t had parents coming and visiting or family coming and visiting because we haven’t been able to travel. And your son’s been sick this last week. Has your dad been able to help a bit while he’s been here?
[00:26:25] Zoe: My dad’s great. Yeah. I find that I’m a lot more relaxed, just having one other person, you know, that I can rely on.
[00:26:33] Louise: So as we finish up, can you tell us if there are any interesting productions that you’re working on here in Portugal?
[00:26:41] Zoe: For now it’s more bringing productions over. I’m focused on getting clients from overseas. So in a way you’re, trying to sell the place.
[00:26:52] Louise: Sell it as in, uh, having productions come here to film.
[00:26:56] Zoe: Yeah. Yep. So the main reason people go overseas to film is the location is available or there’s an incentive such as they get tax rebates or it will be the crew. There’ll be a reason that that happens. And then also the directors and the creative team. And so they might be based here or they’re near here. There’ll be people that would be difficult for those others to find. Most clients are wanting something a bit different, they want a new look, fresh and new and different.
[00:27:31] Um, so it would be, say a script that’s based in a, in a country that could pass for Portugal or something very distinctive that they’ve seen and want. Most of the time they don’t know what it is they want and I will send them a reference. Or they would tell me the project, what they’re doing and then I think, oh, that would be good here. How about this? How about that? And I’m kind of give them ideas. Also, give them a team. I know the skills of all the team and I know what’s available and also know the clients. So they would trust me to bring them here. So there’s a lot of personal information involved.
[00:28:14] Louise: I see. Well, thanks so much for your time, Zoe. And if listeners would like to connect with you, where can they find you online?
[00:28:23] Zoe: They could email me at Zoe@SpyManor.com or via my LinkedIn page.
[00:28:29] Louise: Great. Well, I’ll add those to the transcript of this episode. And again, thanks so much for your time today.
[00:28:36] Zoe: Thanks for having me.
[00:28:38] Louise: Thank you for listening today. And so you don’t miss future episodes with more impressive, intrepid women do subscribe on your favorite podcast provider or on my YouTube channel, Women Who Walk Podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review Women Who Walk on either Apple Podcasts or Podchaser, I’ve linked to them both in the transcript of this episode, on my website, LouiseRoss.com.