EPISODE 27
May 24, 2022
Born in Sri Lanka in 1984, Florence Chabert d’Hieres grew up in a loving family in Lyon, France with her adoptive parents, an Italian mother and French father. Fast forward to the pandemic: While in lockdown, and working from home, Florence saw a YouTube documentary, “The Stolen Children of Sri Lanka.” She learned that as many as 1500 Sri-Lankan babies had been stolen and trafficked during the 1980s and after months of research, Florence discovered that she was one of those babies. Learning that her origin story was not what her adoptive parents had been told, and realizing that she would never know the circumstances around how she was separated from her birth mother, Florence transformed this potentially devastating information into something positive, applying it in her practice as an Intercultural trainer & Cross-Cultural Coach.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Louise: Welcome to Women Who WaIk. I’m Louise Ross, writer and author of Women Who Walk the book, the inspiration for this podcast. And just as I did for the book here, I’ll be interviewing and unpacking the journeys of impressive, intrepid women who’ve made multiple international moves for work, for adventure, for love, for freedom – reminding us that women can do extraordinary things. You can find a transcript, with pictures, to each episode, and my books on my website, LouiseRoss.com.
[00:00:47] Louise: Hello listeners. Welcome to Episode 27 of Women Who Walk. My guest today is Florence Chabert d’Hieres.
[00:00:56] Louise: Born in Sri Lanka in 1984, Florence grew up in a loving family in Lyon, France with her adoptive parents, an Italian mother and French father, and her Sri Lankan adopted sister. She attended an international school where she learned French, English, Spanish, and German, later graduating from a French-American business school, followed by a relocation to New York for a Master’s in Marketing Management.
[00:01:28] Louise: The stage was set for an international life. And in fact, as an international adoptee, she went on to become an intercultural trainer and international parenting expert. And with her husband and three young daughters, Florence and family have now lived in the USA, several European countries, Australia, and the Middle East.
[00:01:53] Louise: But fast forward to the pandemic: While in lockdown, and working from home, Florence saw a documentary on YouTube, “The Stolen Children of Sri Lanka.” She learned that as many as 1500 Sri-Lankan babies had been stolen and trafficked during the 1980s. At the time, the legal vagueness surrounding adoptions allowed for unscrupulous intermediaries to benefit, with adopting parents completely in the dark regarding this horrific practice.
[00:02:30] Louise: After months of research, Florence discovered that she was a stolen and trafficked baby.
[00:02:38] Louise: Learning that her origin story was not what her adoptive parents had been told and realizing that she would never know the circumstances around how she was separated from her birth mother, Florence channeled her grief into further studies.
[00:02:56] Louise: In 2021, she earned a Child and Youth Psychology Diploma and she trained as a Brain Gym practitioner. She talks about Brain Gym during our conversation, explaining it as physical movements or exercises we can use to enhance our ability to process information, stress, and trauma.
[00:03:21] Louise: Florence is also the author of I’m a Citizen of the World, a book for expat parents on the move, designed to help families succeed in their expat life.
[00:03:33] Louise: And as with my Episode 26 guest, Ana Ghiban, I met Florence at an online conference hosted by Families in Global Transition. If you’re curious to know more about this organization, their website is FIGT.org. And now, onto my conversation with Florence.
[00:04:12] Louise: Welcome Florence. Now you grew up in Lyon, in France, though, you were born in Colombo, Sri Lanka, and I’ve been to Lyon and it’s a beautiful city. Can, can you tell us a little about your childhood neighborhood, perhaps what it was like for you growing up there?
[00:04:30] Florence: Thank you so much Louise, for having me. And indeed, Lyon it is a beautiful city. I love Lyon, because of its food, of course, and I think we can mention also because of the wine. So yes, it’s, it’s where I grew up.
[00:04:44] Florence: So I was adopted at 3 weeks by my, uh, French dad and my Italian mom. And I do have a sister as well, who is also adopted from Sri Lanka. And I was raised in Lyon, in a international school and I had the chance to live just next to the big Parc de la Tete d’Or. The park was my garden and it was really, really amazing. And a loving parents, a great school, even if, sometime it was a bit tricky, but, um, it gave me the chance to learn many languages and to go abroad. So I can say that I fell into the intercultural portion from the beginning.
[00:05:23] Louise: You did indeed actually we’ll get into that in a little bit. I was just going to reflect on something because it’s something that I noticed in France and as an Australian, it sort of stuck in my mind. But you said you’ve had the opportunity to play in a beautiful park and, and that happens here in Portugal, too, where people generally live in apartments, and so families go to the park. They take their children to the park and it’s more of a, sort of a communal, um, playtime, I guess. In Australia we have our own backyards, cause most people live in houses and children play in their own backyard. What do you think were the benefits of having a communal play area or park with other children from, from your apartment block?
[00:06:11] Florence: It was really great because it’s a huge park. I don’t know if you recall, like there is a zoo inside, there is a huge lake. And I really believe also, uh, being a Brain Gym practitioner that we learn through movement. So it’s great to be able to go and do some bicycle, or there were even horses in the park, so we could do like many, many things, and we were not stuck as you said, in our apartment.
[00:06:37] Louise: Okay. So you also mentioned you’re a Brain Gym practitioner. And so there’s a couple of things that you’ve mentioned that we’ll we’ll get to. But on your website homepage, uh, it says that Florence and the, um, acronym for your name is FCH, which I really love. Florence Chabert d’Hieres. Did I get that right?
[00:07:01] Florence: Yes
[00:07:01] Louise: FCH “is a woman with quite a story to tell,” and this is so true. And one part of that story is your heritage, which you alluded to because you, um, have an Italian mum and a French father, your adoptive parents. And, I think you mentioned to me that it was over the pandemic period that you did a DNA test, and you found out a little bit more about your background. Are you comfortable sharing some of this with us?
[00:07:29] Florence: Of course, because I think I’m not the only one. And I think it’s important to, um, to make people understand that even if we don’t know where we come from, there are so many tools available to know where we are going to. And, um, so indeed what happened is I just found out a show about the stolen children from Sri Lanka.
[00:07:53] Florence: I was not aware of it at all because for my whole life, I’ve been told that my biological mom was not able to keep me. That’s why they, she preferred to give me to this association to make sure that I could have a better life than the one she could offer to me. And when I saw this, um, show, you can imagine how shocked I was and how much I cried.
[00:08:16] Florence: And this was a beginning of a huge adventure. Not knowing where I was going, not knowing which answer I will found. But it was for me, like a mission because I had this information, I had to look into it. So indeed the first step actually to do a DNA test, to know where I come from. And this is great platform, which is called Family Tree, where all of the Sri Lankan, both biological parents, but also the adoptees, we are on all these database.
[00:08:46] Florence: It’s a bit like, you know, um, Tinder, I would say, so I’m waiting today for a match. I met my cousins. And one in particular, she’s also from Lyon. Basically, it’s actually my only blood link, and we have a great relationship. We have the same mindset in regards of all this story.
[00:09:09] Florence: What happened is I found out that, um, my birth certificate was false. So of course, nearly 40 years ago, internet was not there. They were not like all the tech that we could find today. So it took me quite awhile with people in Sri Lanka who helped me a lot. And it was so, so, um, powerful how people that you don’t know go and help you to find your biological mother or any information that could help me.
[00:09:38] Florence: And we found out that I will not be able to find out who is my biological mum. So it’s an answer in itself. Maybe not the one that I was looking for, but it’s really nice for me to know. Okay, I have been stolen. I have been raised in a loving family and I’m so thankful for my adoptive parents. And it’s just that I will never know where I come from. But I make peace with it because for me, just a question of mindset.
[00:10:09] Florence: I love this quote of Anaïs Nin, I don’t know if you know this one: “We don’t see things as they are, we see things as we are.” And of course, um, from outside, it can feel like really terrible and terrifying. But from my own point of view it’s already a lot to have the opportunity to know a bit more about my background. And it’s already a lot to know that regardless of what’s happened, I have the roots that allows me to grow with this situation.
[00:10:43] Louise: Wow. God, let’s just take a breath. Oh my goodness. That’s a really, really powerful story. And thank you so much for, for sharing it. Uh, and I don’t want to be a Pollyanna about this, but one of the positives coming out of this is that you have a cousin who lives near you that you’ve connected with and you’re developing a relationship with, and that is extraordinary. I mean, the whole story is extraordinary, but to be connected with a blood relative not knowing, um, who your mother is and that you will never know, but to have a cousin, that’s wonderful.
[00:11:20] Florence: It is, it is. And it’s so interesting because, um, our daughters, so I have three daughters and, um, she has one daughter she’s gonna deliver soon with another baby and they really look alike. So it’s so funny to see that. And we have the same story, and we just make the most of it and we look forward what the future has to offer and we are bonding and it’s great! Because at the end of the day, the world is a village. You can really see that when you do a DNA test, you know?
[00:11:52] Louise: You can indeed, you can indeed. And then, so one of the other things that you’re doing is that with your cousin, you’re now creating this new generation of an extended family that will all be linked in real time, not just through DNA tests, so that’s really wonderful.
[00:12:10] Louise: You’ve also taken a really, uh, positive spin on this. I mean, I can imagine for some people there would be something quite devastating about this and quite, perhaps even emotionally crippling, but it seems to me that you have, perhaps it’s just part of who you are, you’ve taken this information and you’ve done something really positive with it, which is well, let’s go there. Let’s talk about Brain Gym. This is something that you are now working on with other internationals, isn’t it? As a, as a coach.
[00:12:42] Florence: Exactly.
[00:12:43] Louise: But tell us, tell us a bit about this.
[00:12:45] Florence: What happened is when I found out about my origin, I was also in the middle of two countries and it was very difficult for my second daughter. So I went into educational kinesiology which is another name for Brain Gym, and I saw the results. How learning to play, yes.
[00:13:05] Louise: Florence, did you say educational gymology?
[00:13:10] Florence: Kinesiology.
[00:13:11] Louise: Kinesiology. Okay. Educational kinesiology. Okay, thanks.
[00:13:15] Florence: Sorry, it’s my French accent, Louise.
[00:13:17] Louise: Oh, it’s beautiful. I’m sure our listeners will find it beautiful too.
[00:13:21] Florence: Thank you. But yeah, so I found out that it really helped to learn through play. It really helped to listen to the emotions and to understand how our brain function, because it helped us really overcome, as I did tricky situations. It’s helped my daughter as well in the move. And I really wanted to know more about it. And I started to go back and be trained. It took me two years to get my license. So it’s quite a long time and it’s a lot of information about the brain and it really allows us to understand how little on a daily basis we actually use our brain and how all the 26 movements that are the basis of Brain Gym can help us in our daily life.
Image from Florence’s website of the Brain Gym concept and using ‘burgers’ as a way for globally-mobile families to create their own culture
[00:14:08] Louise: Can you give us a little example, perhaps give us a sample of how you might use it working with a client.
[00:14:15] Florence: Yes of course. So we can really use it at any time and everywhere. Um, one of the movements that I really like, it’s a positive point. We just go above our eyebrows and we have two little holes and we can massage them and those points help us to have positive intention. It helps us with stress. It helps us with memorization and concentration. Each and every movement have a result based on the goal that we would like to reach during a session.
[00:14:49] Florence: So, if it is like, for example, for children to read better, we have a movement according to the reading. If we are going to give a conference, we have movements, that’s are linked to it. It really depends on the goal. So for me, what we do is that we use those movements as part of our family culture and I of course use it with my clients. But it’s important first to use it in my private life, I would say, so I can really show the benefits of what it is in my professional life. And when we are living in different countries, I think it’s very important to have this family culture because we can bring it wherever we are.
[00:15:32] Louise: I think what I’m understanding is that as you’re processing information, there are exercises to move the information through the body. Is that right?
[00:15:43] Florence: Exactly. If we don’t go into too many scientific terms, all the emotions uh, can be stuck in the back of our brain and thanks to Brain Gym, we can have them move into the front of our brain. So basically it is like going from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset..
[00:16:02] Louise: A fixed mindset to a what mindset?
[00:16:04] Florence: Growth.
[00:16:05] Louise: Growth. Oh, okay. Hmm. I think when we’re very stressed, it’s important to release energy through movement, to move energy through the body. Is that another way to understand Brain Gym.
[00:16:20] Florence: It is. It’s really to relieve the tension and also the beauty of Brain Gym is to find the balance between our mind and our body.
[00:16:31] Louise: Hmm.
[00:16:32] Florence: Most of the time we listen too much to our brain and we forget to listen um, to our body.
[00:16:38] Louise: That’s right. One of the things that, I, I learned recently, it was when I was at the dentist, sorry, I’m going to get the giggles, it was when I was at the dentist and it was just a dreadful experience and they hit a nerve and I just said, stop, stop, stop. And I got up and I automatically jumped up and down and waved my arms around. And I realized what I was doing is releasing all that tension because it was a very emotional moment, you know, when the dentist hits a nerve. And suddenly I was really relaxed. So as I listen to what you’re saying about Brain Gym, If I put it in the context of that dental experience, it makes sense to me that sometimes those emotional experience have to be released. It’s like an electrical current that needs to be released and then suddenly you’re relaxed and you can be back in your body and, uh, and process the experience appropriately and move forward.
[00:17:35] Florence: Exactly. So Louise, I have a good news. If you have to go to the dentist again, you can take both of your hands and you can just like, um, bring them together and squeeze. And this will actually either, you do like this or you squeeze them like that, together. And that will help you to bring your right and your left hemispheres together. So you will feel less pain.
[00:18:00] Louise: Oh, okay. Well, listeners can’t see you, but what you’re saying is your inter-clasping all the fingers.
[00:18:07] Florence: Exactly.
[00:18:07] Louise: Yes. Okay. Alright. That’s, that’s great feedback. Thank you. Cause I do hate the dentist. And as you put your hands up to show me that I noticed you’ve got henna tattoos on your hands. Is that because you have a special occasion coming up or you just like to do that with your daughters?
[00:18:24] Florence: No it’s because it was Eid. There is Ramadan and at the end of Ramadan there is Eid. So we had the beautiful Eid party, um, with all my Muslim friends and that’s why we ended up with henna everywhere. Yeah.
[00:18:39] Louise: Can you tell me a little about Eid? I saw something on Facebook recently, someone was posting about celebrating Eid. I know Ramadan is a fasting period, but Eid is different or similar.
[00:18:52] Florence: What I usually say when I do my intercultural trainings, um, for Catholic there is Lent and at the end we celebrate with Easter. And for the Muslim community, it’s the same, there is Ramadan and we celebrate at the end of Ramadan, Eid. So there are two Eids: there is Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. The Eid al-Fitr will be at the end of Ramadan and the Eid al-Adha will be a few weeks, months later. And that is when Muslims are going on a pilgrimage.
[00:19:26] Louise: Oh, okay. Will you do that? Will you go on a pilgrimage? I know you’ve got …
[00:19:30] Florence: But no, no, because I am Catholic. But I just celebrate Eid because of all my years in the Middle East. That’s why.
[00:19:37] Louise: Okay. And now, perhaps it’s because that’s where my mind goes, when you say Eid, I know it’s E I D, isn’t it?
[00:19:43] Florence: Yeah.
[00:19:43] Louise: Yeah, but it sounds like EAT, and at the end of Ramadan, people usually do have quite a feast don’t they? They eat!
[00:19:53] Louise: So getting back to your international education. It really did open the door for you to have quite an international life and in fact, as a result of that, uh, in 2018, you wrote, I’m a Citizen of the World, which is a book for parents and children to guide them in creating their own family culture. You’ve addressed this a little bit, uh, creating your own family culture when you were talking about Brain Gym, but what do you mean by this, or what is the message you hope to pass on to other international families via this book that you wrote?
[00:20:29] Florence: I decided to write I’m a Citizen of the World, because it was actually our country number eight and my daughters were born in Dubai. And I thought that it’s such a multicultural country, and I’m also an interculturalist and a trainer, so I know quite a lot about cultures and how to blend in. And most of the time when you moved all the boxes, some companies offer intercultural trainings, but some others don’t. So what I wanted to do it’s to help international families to understand the values concept that could help them really thrive, uh, during the expat adventure. So I took some concepts, I created the burger metaphor, for example, um, to help children and families build their own burger, their own sense of identity, that sense of belonging.
Front cover of Florence’s book, I’m a Citizen of The World
[00:21:26] Louise: As you talk about families, I’m reminded that we actually met through the online conference hosted by Families in Global Transition. So that certainly is an area where your expertise is, is greatly needed. Isn’t it? Because families really do need that support when they’re moving country-to-country. And this kind of support has really come a long way. Do you think that that is because families are moving internationally in greater numbers?
[00:21:59] Florence: I think they’re moving a lot. Also what happened is they are moving many times during the expat adventure. As I mentioned, we did eight countries. Um, so people are moving a lot and they stay one year, three years, 10 years, it depends. But even if we are moving a lot, we need to address all the issues, all the challenges that arise and this is why I hope the book will help people to understand, like, how do we say to our children that we are moving?
[00:22:33] Florence: How do we get prepared? What do we take in the plane? And what do we put in the boxes? How do, how do we make new friends? How do we do when we change schools? If we go from a French system to a British system, how, how it works. How to say bye-bye as well. It’s really like the whole tips for the whole expat adventure. And even if we do it so many times, we still need to, to figure out how it is when we say bye-bye to a country at an age that will have different challenges that if you move at another age basically.
[00:23:08] Florence: And what I found out as well, even in the same family, children don’t react the same way because of the maturity, because of, uh, how many besties they might have. So it’s really important to keep in mind that you have tools out there, as we mentioned earlier, that can really help with smoothing this transition.
[00:23:30] Louise: Yeah. Yeah. Again, very important. How, how do your girls adjust? I mean, do you find that they appear to be more adaptable than some of the contemporaries at school?
[00:23:45] Florence: It really depends on the country. My little one is like, uh, a fish in the water and she’s doing great because she’s still small. My eldest one, she starts to ask us to build our roots in the country and stop moving. And my second one, as I mentioned, she’s the reason why I went into Brain Gym. So now that we’re doing Brain Gym every day, she’s really, really feeling much better.
[00:24:11] Florence: Yeah. There are some struggles. That’s the point of being a TCK, your subculture kid as well. It has huge advantageous because a cultural bridge, they know how to speak many languages and they are adaptable everywhere. But some of the challenges is really to know who am I where I come from and where is home, basically.
[00:24:33] Louise: Yes, and that raises an interesting kind of question, which is that despite that the children know who their biological parents are um, they’re asking the same questions that you asked, which is where we began this interview, which is who am I am? Where am I from? And you sort of know. But your children will be asking the same question because of all the country moves that you have made and may continue to make. I mean, do you see that you’ll continue to make additional country moves or do you see you and your husband and the family settling at some point.
[00:25:10] Florence: As we say in Arabic, inshallah, you’ve got wheels. Inshallah. I have no idea. I’m not able to answer to this question, but to be honest, I hope uh, in a time of three years, we will settle down somewhere.
[00:25:30] Louise: That chapter has yet to unfold, hasn’t it.
[00:25:33] Florence: Exactly. Exactly. But I think if you are prepared, I think that’s the most important. As long as you have the right mindset. As long as you are prepared, it should be fine.
[00:25:45] Louise: Okay. Now you also mentioned, Dubai and the Middle East, and I know most of your clients are there. Now, are they mostly internationals that you’re working with, because Dubai is such an international center these days?
[00:25:59] Florence: It is. It’s funny because I don’t have that many French people, funny enough. But I do have many, internationals. And I train from six years old to top management, the spouses, the kids, for big companies or individual clients. I really have a rich and so diverse panel of, um, of relations.
[00:26:20] Louise: Yeah, of international clients in Dubai. Well, Florence this has been really insightful, touching on some, some deeper emotional issues, so I really thank you for sharing what you have shared with us. And if listeners would like to find out more about you and your work, where can they find you online?
[00:26:39] Florence: So you can find me pretty much everywhere on social media. I’m on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and also through my website, which is coach4expat.com And if you were to order the book, I’m a Citizen of the World, I’d be more than happy to write down for whom you would like to offer it to, because I think expatriation life it’s a question of relationships that you create. As you mentioned, we met at FIGT conference and I’m so glad we did. It’s really a question of bonding. So if I can put my little stone to the to the past or to the journey of your expat adventure, that would be my biggest pleasure.
[00:27:24] Louise: Thank you. Well, listeners, you heard it direct from Florence. And so you gave us your website address, but on social media, is it the same as your website address or your, your name?
[00:27:37] Florence: For LinkedIn that would be under Florence Chabert d’Hieres, otherwise it will be coach4expat or, um, on Instagram, it would be yourcoach4expat.
[00:27:49] Louise: Terrific. So I will add those links to the transcript, to this episode. And once again, thank you so much, Florence.
[00:27:58] Florence: Thank you, Louise. Thanks for having me.
[00:28:01] Louise: Thank you for listening today. And so you don’t miss future episodes with more impressive, intrepid women do subscribe on your favorite podcast provider or on my YouTube channel, Women Who Walk Podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review Women Who Walk on either Apple or Podchaser, I’ve linked to them both in the transcript of this episode, on my website, LouiseRoss.com.